using "dirty moves" against a grappler

The following is an answer to a ongoing debate I had through email/IMing. It revolved around the other person's contention that "dirty moves" (i.e. eye gouges, biting, skin ripping, etc...) were a good weapon to use in a fight against a superior grappler who has taken you down and is controlling you so well that you are unable to escape using "regular" moves. It is my experience that the people who think these moves are consistently successful in a grappling situation are the people who NEVER step foot on a grappling mat to actually see firsthand what they are talking about. I feel strongly that not only is it stupid to try "dirty moves", it is a general waste of training time. Here I try to outline why.


In a superficial way, I agree with your point, XXXXX. However, overall, I think it is wrong on two levels. First, I think there is an implication here that as soon as the "dirty" fighter launches his dirty move(s), the non-dirty fighter panics and loses all sense of what he was doing before. In your example of the BG taking you down, putting you in cross side, and holding your there because he is a superior ground fighter, your shredder scenario works only if the BG completely ignores what he has been successful with already, which I find hard to believe. Why would he lose all control at the first sign of pain? After all, he is already so much better than the other guy and is totally dominant. A wussy with a low tolerance of pain he is probably not. And if he isn't a wuss, AND is already completely dominating the situation, shouldn't he be able to make adjustments along the way? If he can't, then he probably is not the superior fighter, and in that case, the dirty moves are probably not needed in the first place because you can most likely escape using "non-dirty" techniques.

Also, and I might be thinking too personally here, but I know that if I am controlling someone in a fight so much so that their only hope of escape is taking it off-road (to use Paul Sharp's fantastic phrase) and they do so, a few thoughts will quickly go through my head:

1) "Oh, so we are moving to more of a lethal force level?" – where maybe I was operating under the idea this was just a "fist-fight", you just told me you considered it more, so I can now act appropriately.

2) "Oh yeah, I can do that too" – even if I didn't spend a lot of time training those moves, and they wouldn't come out under stress as long as it was ME doing the decision making, I am quite sure that anyone who was good enough to be in control at the stage would easily be able to have the brain switch over to "copying". In this case, as my opponent tries to eye gouge me, I defend it, and then undoubtedly the battle computer in my head will fire off the command to "go ahead and do the same thing back". Unfortunately for my opponent, I am actually the one that is in the position to throw continuous dirty moves, and he is going to be able do absolutely nothing about it. Is that really, truly a good thing for him to give me that idea?

Variations on this has happened countless times in training/sparring. For example, I am not a big leg lock guy. I have seen too many injuries result from them to spend a lot of time training them so it irritates me if there is no agreement beforehand to use them. But if it happens that my partner does try it and after I defend it, almost every time I think "okay, your turn" and do it back to them EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT A BIG PART OF MY ARSENAL. If I am a good enough grappler, adding something like that is not difficult, which I am sure you know well. My general point here is that if I am so good that the only way the other guy can escape is to go off-road, I probably have the ability to adjust to what he does as well as the ability to improvise, BUT I CAN DO IT FROM A SUPERIOR POSITION!

I am used to literally hundreds and hundreds of hours of trying to control and submit guys at or near my same technical level who many times out class me physically (bigger, stronger, faster, younger, better cardio, less injured, etc..). I think - no, I know I can because I do so on a regular basis - I can probably handle a second or two of pain while I adjust to maintain my dominance.

The second way I have problems with your idea/point is in this regard and I think it speaks to an even more important overall point on why I think training these kind of moves are a general waste. I think to a large degree, not being able to use dirty moves because I have not trained them is moot. In everything I do in straight BJJ, I am working my counters to dirty moves. The things I need to do to control a position, sweep, take the back, or slap on a submission are the EXACT SAME THINGS I need to do to handle dirty moves. Again, using your example of the BG taking top control in cross-side, unless he is clueless at that point, which makes NO SENSE, he will be looking to move to the next phase. If he is controlling you so well, he most likely has control over your head and /or shoulders, has immediate control over one of your arms, most likely has put your other arm in a situation where it is neutralized, and has blocked your ability to move your hips very well. Where is the ability for you to apply dirty moves uninterrupted? I just don't see it. As soon as you move to apply an eye gouge for instance, he will treat it as any other hand motion and adjust. Whether he thinks you are going for the eye gouge, or just trying to make space for an escape does not matter. The top guy can easily treat it as one and the same and shut you down.

I witnessed my BJJ coach roll with a very well known and successful JKD instructor. After being completely tortured for a few rounds, the JKD instructor talked about maybe using "dirty moves" as counters (he was well known for advocating biting/pinching/gouging type moves as a counter to BJJ). My BJJ coach kind of scoffed at it, which irritated the JKD guy. So, my instructor said go ahead and use them. They proceeded to roll again, and my coach DID NOT DO ONE THING DIFFERENT. And the results were the same. The JKD guy was humiliated. He never got the chance to use his cool moves because the delivery system to apply them effectively are the same delivery systems that work without the "street moves". Basically, if I do what I am supposed to do on the ground, there are very few windows of vulnerability open, even if I don't train it regularly.